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| Do Ghosts Exist or Not? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 24 2011, 10:23 AM (4,087 Views) | |
| SirParagon | Feb 19 2012, 10:19 PM Post #91 |
Sparking!
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Clearly we are going in circles, but I assure you that my argument addresses these points. You did bring up another one though, 'humans are flawed creatures', so is that suggesting our senses are imperfect? That we cannot trust them? How can that be when we must use our sight to understand what is being conveyed here through language? If we were directly talking to each other we would be relying on our ears. You cannot argue our senses are inaccurate when we need them to communicate the very same argument. If they are inaccurate then the act of arguing would be completely pointless because there would be no way of knowing exactly what the other person is saying. We cannot create null-zones were any irrational craziness is possible just because we do not understand everything about the universe, it is simply wrong to ignore what has already been established. Science is a method, not a theory. I deny the existence of supernatural entities because they cannot exist. There is no 'maybe'. That is not being closed-minded, it's being realistic. Surely you wouldn't call someone closed-minded for insisting 1 + 1 does not equal pancake. Edited by SirParagon, Feb 20 2012, 02:07 AM.
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Feb 20 2012, 01:01 AM Post #92 |
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Exactly. This discussion is a big circle. Paranormal activity. We all see it different. Some say ghosts are the cold breezes in their house or creaks of their floors. But reality is, do we even know what form a ghost is? |
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| SirParagon | Feb 20 2012, 02:00 AM Post #93 |
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Sparking!
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The workings of the universe are not subjective. Faith is willed bigotry in what is known to be wrong. Sorry to be such a consistent killjoy, but I'm not one for false hope.
Edited by SirParagon, Feb 20 2012, 02:06 AM.
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New Account: Spirit Metaphor Voluntarism? | |
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| Socrates was a Sayain | Feb 20 2012, 02:52 AM Post #94 |
 
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Well this has made a thrilling read. Personally I have not experienced anything particularly supernatural yet I wouldn't dream of telling someone who has that they are wrong. It's a debate that I don't think will ever be settled. I don't see why its impossible for ghosts to exist, stranger things have happened. Yet I do feel demand characteristics come into play. That is you see what you want to see. If you go to a ghost "hot spot" hoping to see a ghost you just may psychologically trick yourself into believing you saw something. I am yet to form an opinion, I will stay open minded until I see fit to either cast faith or dispel the idea. |
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| InterWebZ | Apr 10 2012, 12:22 PM Post #95 |
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I think Socrates is right on the money with this one- there is, in short, not enough evidence to really settle the matter either way. I'm from a science background. I'm finishing a science degree now, and do have published scientific papers to my name. And I think that ghosts can be analysed to a certain extent from a scientific perspective. While I agree with SirParagon's sentiment that there is no clear evidence for ghosts' existence at this time, I don't agree with his claim that they could not possibly exist, or are not a worthy subject for rational discussion. For one thing, we simply cannot ever rule out anything with 100% certainty- no matter how strong current evidence is, the only thing we can ever truly say is "I'm pretty sure X is true, but I could be wrong". Of course, we can still prove/disprove certain matters beyond a reasonable doubt, which is something worth pursuing here. If I may, I'd like to revisit the three assumptions that SirParagon considers necessary for ghosts to exist:
There is no present scientific consensus on what "consciousness" actually is, or what it originates from (which is partly why attempts to replicate intelligence in computers have so far failed completely). The only thing we know is that our consciousness appears to operate in our brains (given that altering our brain appears to affect our mood and behavior). There is still some debate as to how our brains produce consciousness, however, or if other processes could sustain the same thing. A single neuron is clearly not self aware, yet millions of them working in unison are. The question of what constitutes "physical matter" is also not necessarily one that's easy to answer. Only 17% of matter in the universe is baryonic matter; the rest is "dark matter" that does not interact through strong, weak, or electromagnetic interactions (it only interacts via gravity- we think). On top of that, there's also such wonderful concepts as "mirror matter", which can interact with itself through any of the 4 fundamental forces, but only interact with baryonic matter through gravity. The idea of entities existing that are not detectable through electromagnetic interactions is quite easy to swallow in physical terms, and such entities would be invisible to humans and almost all our technology. You could walk straight through a mirror-matter being and not notice anything at all; the only way to detect it would be through gravity.
This is perfectly consistent with modern physics, in fact several physical models require that there exist dimensions beyond our own. The latest versions of string theory only make sense is the universe has 11 dimensions (20 in some models). Also, the existence of parallel universes is an area of considerable physical discussion. The existence of universes other than our own is not something that can be ruled out, and in fact
And that's the clincher. Clearly, it cannot be measured yet, although that is not grounds to rule out further speculation. We have only been able to detect and manipulate electromagnetic fields recently. Of course, that is itself not grounds to immediately say that ghosts must exist even if we have no evidence, but at the same time it isn't grounds for ruling anything out. Now, the ultimate question is, is there some kind of "life force" (for lack of a better term) that exists in the universe, and is it capable of sustaining information processing on its own? If so, what is it? If not, how do we explain various strange phenomena that people have experienced? I for one am not fully satisfied with purely psychological explanations for all of them (although I admit that many of them are). The only answer I can think anyone can legitimately say is that we don't know. While the scientific method is a powerful tool to understand the universe, we are nowhere near knowing enough about it to make definitive statements on matters for which only inconclusive evidence is available. I doubt that if there are ghosts, they would have much semblance to what most mythology describes them as. But ruling them out solely on the grounds that they are stupid or irrational is not valid in my view. I don't like to rely on "faith" for matters where rational consideration is a more viable alternative. I think that gods, ghosts, and other "supernatural" phenomena are, however, areas worthy of rational consideration. We simply don't know enough about the universe to make sense of it yet. EDIT: And then I kind of noticed no posts since February. That's my bad- sorry for not checking that out first. Would just delete this post but can't see an option for that. Edited by InterWebZ, Apr 10 2012, 02:03 PM.
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